Re: [robocup-rescue-s] Rescue Simulation outlook

From: Ahmad Boorghany <boorghany_at_gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 17:03:47 +0400

Dear Alex and Arash,

On 6/5/07, Alexander Kleiner <kleiner_at_informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The main problem is to find people willing to contribute to the league.
> Currently, there is no management problem because there are no workers
> (programmers).
> The most active workers are Cameron and Arash. However, please note that
> they are there since 2003 (I guess). Since that time there were many
> people, particularly from Iran, competing in this competition. However,
> since so many years, Cameron and Arash are still doing the main part of
> the work on their own, even they have many other things to do. This is
> also the reason why the development of the next kernel version could not
> be finished in time.

Special thanks to Cameron and Arash. We really know that current state of
rescue simulations is because of their appreciated efforts.

I thank you for thinking about how to improve Rescue Simulation.
> Therefore, I would appreciate it very much if you take the consequence
> and join the team of developers in the future. If you are interested,
> please contact Cameron for getting a user account at sourceforge.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
>
> Babak Behsaz schrieb:
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > I think the one of the MAIN problems of Robocup Rescue
> > Simulation Project is its weak project management.
> > There are many other problems that I will not address
> > here, because without a well-qualified management
> > team, we could not reach our desired goals.
> >
> > I believe even with these resources, we could have
> > more desirable output. But the management team (mainly
> > TC and OC, in my opinion) cannot utilize the full
> > capacity of these resources.
> > I have not enough evidences for this claim, but I
> > think members of OC and TC may remember some instances
> > of this weak management. Maybe, if some of them would
> > not be such conservative, we would have a clearer view
> > of what is happening in TC and OC and how they are
> > deciding and managing this project! I cannot even see
> > an organizational structure in TC and OC.
> >
> > Of course, one may say that management is not their
> > main responsibilities, but I will ask so who is
> > responsible for Project Management?
> >
> > Finally, I should mention that some of them may try
> > hard for the league, but their efforts do not seem to
> > be effective enough.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Babak Behsaz
> > 2003-2005 S.O.S. Team Member
> >
> > --- Mohammad Tavakoli Ghinani <mtavakoli_at_gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hi Rescuers!
> >>
> >> I think the fact is the rescue simulation will be
> >> vanished in
> >> the near future. Believe it or not, the current
> >> simulators are too far
> >> from the reality. Just as an example consider Misc
> >> simulator. I have
> >> selected it because it has the main effect on a
> >> simulation. The concepts such as
> >> HP, damage or buriedness do not have any
> >> justification. I don't want
> >> to list all of these problems because in my opinion
> >> these are not the
> >> causes, these are the effects. We should have some
> >> plans in the rescue
> >> simulation for promoting this league. The rescue
> >> simulation does not
> >> need the new protocols or new kernel, it needs some
> >> new and better
> >> simulators, some simulators which resembles the real
> >> world not the
> >> fantastic and imaginary one (Consider the 3D soccer
> >> simulation).
> >>
> >> Please consider the aim of the rescue simulation, to
> >> help the people
> >> in a disaster environment. Can anybody say firmly we
> >> can achieve this
> >> with this system? What are our priorities in the
> >> rescue simulation?
> >> I think we need a good plan for rescue simulation.
> >> But the current
> >> habit in the rescue simulation shows that each year
> >> before the Robocup
> >> competitions some very quick and abrupt changes are
> >> made into the
> >> system. We can observe it in this year even. I don't
> >> know why we should have a
> >> buggy and not-completed Kernel in the competitions
> >> also why the teams
> >> should be a test bed for the new kernel? It
> >> has so many revealed bugs which mean, it still has
> >> some unrevealed
> >> ones. I urge everybody to think about this sentence:
> >> Shouldn't we have
> >> a plan for developing and promoting the rescue
> >> simulation step by
> >> step, just like 3D Soccer simulation? And how we can
> >> reach to this
> >> plan?
> >> Suppose all of the KNOWN bugs fixed before the
> >> competitions what
> >> happen if a new bug discover during the
> >> competitions. Doesn't it
> >> question the whole purpose of rescue simulation. We
> >> should be clear
> >> the purpose of simulation this year.
> >>
> >> Finally remember that it is not the responsibility
> >> of TCs to keep
> >> alive this league we have responsibilities too.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mohammad Tavakoli Ghinani
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> robocup-rescue-s mailing list
> >> robocup-rescue-s_at_cc.gatech.edu
> >>
> >>
> > https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-rescue-s
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
> > _______________________________________________
> > robocup-rescue-s mailing list
> > robocup-rescue-s_at_cc.gatech.edu
> > https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-rescue-s
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> robocup-rescue-s mailing list
> robocup-rescue-s_at_cc.gatech.edu
> https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-rescue-s
>

On 6/5/07, Arash Rahimi <rahimi_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Babak,
>
> Of course, project management has been one of our problems
> during these years. With no doubt, during these years of being
> a member of TC and OC, we always had enough ideas and
> plans for improving the quality of simulators and competitions.
> But what we were lacking [and I recently indicated in one of
> my last e-mails to TC and OC] was someone who could say
> the last word when we could not reach a final conclusion due
> to different ideas, a coordinator of tasks, and in a single word,
> a good manager.
>
> But, I still think that the problem was more serious than lack
> of a project manager. Project manager can do well when there
> is [at least some candidates willing to become] a team to
> accomplish some goal. But often, I wasn't able to sense such
> a team spirit in TC and OC. May be it is because some of us
> are only willing [and may be able] to do organization [and not
> technical] work. And may be some of us were so busy with
> their own work that they could not dedicate enough time and
> energy to this responsibility. In this state, one, as the coordinator
> among TC and OC members, was not sure whether a specific
> task would finish on time when he assigned it to someone else.
> Or one, may receive the first answer to his e-mail asking
> others to give their opinions regarding some subject about
> one ro two weeks later.
>
> And of course, the community is also another reason for some
> of our failures. RoboCup rescue simulation community is not
> so active. There are a few posts each month and the subjects
> of most of these posts are not interesting. I admit that in order
> to have a more active community, we should build a mroe attractive
> problem domain but in order to do so, the current members of
> community should dedicate what the are able to dedicate.
>
> At last, I would like to raise another question: Why are all of
> us saying these words now? To Ahmad, Nobel, Mohammad,
> and Omid: what if all bugs of package 0.50 were fixed last
> week? Did you send your e-mails regarding the league and
> its weaknesses in that case? I'm not sure about it! If TC and
> OC are not doing their job well for years and if the league is
> not approaching its desired goal, why weren't these e-mails
> sent one, two, three weeks/months ago?

You are right. They should have been earlier. As you said we are not an
alive community, but I believe that an alive committee could give a new
spirit to the community.

I just want to say that the situation was not such horrible as you said. In
the bugs mailing list there have been valuable bug-reports since a month ago
(18 May, 29 May, ...). I myself sent a mail to development mailing list and
suggested an approach to prepare the package for RoboCup2007 a week
ago.*<http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=E1HozA5-0002Kz-LK%40sc8-sf-web23.sourceforge.net>
*

Cheers,
Ahmad.

P.S. Maybe I release a bug-fix for load/unload bug of the Server50 today. ;)

Regards,
> Arash

On 6/5/07, Babak Behsaz <bbehsaz_at_yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
> >
> > I think the one of the MAIN problems of Robocup Rescue
> > Simulation Project is its weak project management.
> > There are many other problems that I will not address
> > here, because without a well-qualified management
> > team, we could not reach our desired goals.
> >
> > I believe even with these resources, we could have
> > more desirable output. But the management team (mainly
> > TC and OC, in my opinion) cannot utilize the full
> > capacity of these resources.
> > I have not enough evidences for this claim, but I
> > think members of OC and TC may remember some instances
> > of this weak management. Maybe, if some of them would
> > not be such conservative, we would have a clearer view
> > of what is happening in TC and OC and how they are
> > deciding and managing this project! I cannot even see
> > an organizational structure in TC and OC.
> >
> > Of course, one may say that management is not their
> > main responsibilities, but I will ask so who is
> > responsible for Project Management?
> >
> > Finally, I should mention that some of them may try
> > hard for the league, but their efforts do not seem to
> > be effective enough.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Babak Behsaz
> > 2003-2005 S.O.S. Team Member
> >
> > --- Mohammad Tavakoli Ghinani < mtavakoli_at_gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Rescuers!
> > >
> > > I think the fact is the rescue simulation will be
> > > vanished in
> > > the near future. Believe it or not, the current
> > > simulators are too far
> > > from the reality. Just as an example consider Misc
> > > simulator. I have
> > > selected it because it has the main effect on a
> > > simulation. The concepts such as
> > > HP, damage or buriedness do not have any
> > > justification. I don't want
> > > to list all of these problems because in my opinion
> > > these are not the
> > > causes, these are the effects. We should have some
> > > plans in the rescue
> > > simulation for promoting this league. The rescue
> > > simulation does not
> > > need the new protocols or new kernel, it needs some
> > > new and better
> > > simulators, some simulators which resembles the real
> > > world not the
> > > fantastic and imaginary one (Consider the 3D soccer
> > > simulation).
> > >
> > > Please consider the aim of the rescue simulation, to
> > > help the people
> > > in a disaster environment. Can anybody say firmly we
> > > can achieve this
> > > with this system? What are our priorities in the
> > > rescue simulation?
> > > I think we need a good plan for rescue simulation.
> > > But the current
> > > habit in the rescue simulation shows that each year
> > > before the Robocup
> > > competitions some very quick and abrupt changes are
> > > made into the
> > > system. We can observe it in this year even. I don't
> > > know why we should have a
> > > buggy and not-completed Kernel in the competitions
> > > also why the teams
> > > should be a test bed for the new kernel? It
> > > has so many revealed bugs which mean, it still has
> > > some unrevealed
> > > ones. I urge everybody to think about this sentence:
> > > Shouldn't we have
> > > a plan for developing and promoting the rescue
> > > simulation step by
> > > step, just like 3D Soccer simulation? And how we can
> > > reach to this
> > > plan?
> > > Suppose all of the KNOWN bugs fixed before the
> > > competitions what
> > > happen if a new bug discover during the
> > > competitions. Doesn't it
> > > question the whole purpose of rescue simulation. We
> > > should be clear
> > > the purpose of simulation this year.
> > >
> > > Finally remember that it is not the responsibility
> > > of TCs to keep
> > > alive this league we have responsibilities too.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mohammad Tavakoli Ghinani
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > robocup-rescue-s mailing list
> > > robocup-rescue-s_at_cc.gatech.edu
> > >
> > https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-rescue-s
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
> > _______________________________________________
> > robocup-rescue-s mailing list
> > robocup-rescue-s_at_cc.gatech.edu
> > https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-rescue-s
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> robocup-rescue-s mailing list
> robocup-rescue-s_at_cc.gatech.edu
> https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-rescue-s
>
>

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Received on Tue 05 Jun 2007 - 13:07:56 GMT

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